Elsa Chahin, President/CEO of Pikler/Loczy USA, has dedicated herself to carrying on the mission of visionary pediatrician and researcher Dr. Emmi Pikler, which is to promote “respectful and harmonious relationships between the youngest child and the adult.” Like Janet, Elsa is also RIE Associate who studied under Pikler protege Magda Gerber. Elsa joins Janet in this episode to discuss the innumerable, proven benefits of allowing babies to develop their motor skills naturally. These benefits include physical competence, self-awareness, judicial risk-taking, inner-directed joyful learning, emotional health, and an enduring belief in themselves as capable people. As Elsa and Janet explain it, trusting our child’s natural motor development can even make parenting easier, because all babies need from us are secure, intimate relationships and freedom to move.
Transcript of “The Joy in Letting Babies Move Freely (with Elsa Chahin)”
Hi, this is Janet Lansbury. Welcome to Unruffled.
I have a guest today. She’s an extraordinarily accomplished person who’s also a dear friend of mine and a fellow RIE associate. Elsa Chahin is the president and CEO of the internationally-renowned nonprofit corporation Pikler/Lóczy USA, through which she carries on the mission of pediatrician Dr. Emmi Pikler, who was a pioneer in her advocacy for respectful care for children beginning at birth. Elsa Chahin is one of only two accredited Pikler trainers in North America, she’s a sought-after speaker.
And I’ve asked her to be here today to share about an aspect of Pikler’s pedagogy that’s really at the heart of it all: Dr. Pikler’s findings that we can indeed trust babies to develop their motor skills without our assistance, and that there are profound benefits to this for our kids. Not only physically, but for their development of higher-order learning skills, their lifelong love of learning, and, maybe most importantly of all, mental health.
Hi, Elsa. Thank you so much for being here to share with me today.
Elsa Chahin: First of all, I want to say that I’m very happy to be together with you. We’re not just colleagues, we are friends. We started out together around the same time, more than probably 25 years ago, and we both had the blessing of having Magda Gerber, the co-founder of RIE, as our mentor.
Janet Lansbury: This is amazing. Really excited to be talking with you, my dear friend, about this child development philosophy that’s totally changed my life. Forever changed the way I perceive babies, and really all people, as being innately and uniquely competent, with each of us driven from within to fulfill our potential. We saw that in babies and now we realize that we all have this. And the pioneer, and still today the most prominent researcher to discover this and all its implications, was pediatrician Dr. Emmi Pikler, who later inspired my mentor and yours, Magda Gerber.
Wow. I mean, it’s just kind of stunning to me that Dr. Pikler’s work and Magda’s is still not very widely known. It’s still not as mainstream as we might expect it to be, since so much of what they offer is everything we want to give our children.
Today I wanted to talk with you about natural motor development. And this is an aspect of the approach that really is a little more fringe in the amount of people that embrace it. And that’s okay. Parents don’t have to want to do this or they can disagree and not believe in it. But what I’m hoping that you’ll do with me today is offer it as a possibility, as something parents might want to consider. Never to feel bad about if they didn’t do this stuff, but to look at it for maybe their next child or their grandchild or just to hear what it is and why it matters.
So what should parents know about natural motor development? How can they start or how can they look at this as something that might be something they want to add to their parent toolbox?
Elsa Chahin: Well, let’s start with a very simple question back to your audience and to parents: What are your dreams for your children? This is something I always ask in my seminars and lectures. If we stem from that, What do I wish for my children?, then we can go back to the basics and answer your questions to see if it supports their dream. I was just in Miami three days ago and one of the mothers said, “I want my child to grow up to be a risk-taker.” I said, “Whoa. Well, that starts in infancy.” What would you say about your children, Janet?
Janet Lansbury: Well, I can’t say that I knew what my dreams were. I mean, I found this approach because I just was trying to get through the day and I was really having a hard time. I felt like I didn’t have any kind of guidance or plan for what I was working towards besides just taking care of my baby and getting through it.
But later, just being exposed to this and learning all about it, I realized that something really important to me is this sense of knowing and trusting ourselves, that I want my children to have that. I want them to be in tune with who they are and that they’re innately capable and that, really, they’re the ones with all the answers about the direction that they want their life to take. Of course, some things will just happen in life that we can’t control, but the things that they can control, choices of what to study and what kind of work to do, who to partner with, all of that. I feel like a lot of us, including me, don’t have the confidence for that, and I really wanted my children to have that. And just realizing through this work that they can have it, has made me realize that that is really, really important to me.
Elsa Chahin: I think that’s beautiful because clearly you prepared yourself. You didn’t come from an early childhood background. You studied, you prepared yourself really well. Studied a lot, thanks to your children being the main teachers. Now you are where you are, guiding so many of us, and we all benefit from that.
I really want to share a quote by Dr. Emmi Pikler, and she says, “As a matter of principle, we refrain from teaching skills and activities which, under suitable conditions, will evolve through the child’s own initiative and independent activity.” So it’s really about inviting children to have that possibility to move freely. However, there are things that need to be considered.
We can’t talk independently about free motor development without first considering other things that have to happen. For example, a lovely relationship with the adult that cares for the child. One-on-one, respectful care. That fuels the child in all its domains, that’s how the child can then branch out and play freely in a free space. So that takes me to the free space and what you talked about in your books, the Yes Space, and I think you probably coined that phrase. A free, beautiful, safe space that the child can move freely. But how can the child branch out to play? Because he’s been fueled by you. All the needs are met. He’s not tired, she’s not tired, has been fed, has the right clothing, and can go and explore. And then to that, we add the opportunity for them to play freely without being taught how to play.
Janet Lansbury: Or restricted.
Elsa Chahin: Or restricted. So it all goes together. I can’t just talk about freedom of movement without really encompassing the other two principles that make this a holistic approach. So there has to be that.
Janet Lansbury: Yes. And then free movement, what do we mean by that? This is I think probably one of the most controversial aspects of this approach. Why would that be with a baby lying on their back? Why wouldn’t it be with a baby on their tummy? We all know babies need tummy time and all babies will, if they’re allowed to move freely, choose to spend a great part of the day on their tummy when they get to that point.
But what Pikler and Magda Gerber suggested was that we give them time on their backs first because they can move freely in that position. And this experiment that we all do in these classes is, Lie on your tummy and lie on your back and see how you feel. See what the difference is. Also, I used to put my baby up in a seat, restricted that way, strapping her in, and she would be in this chair all the time, and that was also quite restrictive. But being on the tummy can even be restrictive for a baby in the first couple of months.
Elsa Chahin: Yes, and I’m going to go back to tummy time in a second. Firstly, I want to say that adult intervention to teach an infant how to move is unnecessary. Imagine you have a flower or your husband gave you this potted plant and you want it to grow faster because you can’t wait to see that flower bloom. You can’t make it bloom. The flower will bloom when it’s ready. So adult intervention to teach an infant how to move is unnecessary, because each child has a motor program and that will allow them to move from one stage to another smoothly and without major difficulties, from their own initiative.
For example, and I’m going to go back to the tummy time in a moment, but I just want to say that between 1946 and 1963, this is the only longitudinal study that exists of motor development of infants, and there were 722 healthy children that took part in a gross motor development study at the Pikler Institute, commonly known as Lóczy, and the results were published. Basically what was found is that these 722 children, without any adult intervention, simply being allowed to move freely, went through the following positions. So first they’re on their back, we always start on the back. And now we know “back to sleep” is the norm, but even in the 1930s, Emmi Pikler was already recommending it. They turned from their back onto their side and then return to the back. So this is a transitional position. A lot of milestones charts don’t even mention that, from the back to the side. This is an important transition posture.
Then they turn from the supine, their back, to the prone position. Mind you, when they’re learning to go onto their tummy on their own, from the supine to the prone, sometimes they can’t get back. So it is recommended that you assist them to get them back to the back position. Then they turn from the prone to the supine with confidence, and they come to creep on their hands and knees or hands and feet.
Janet Lansbury: Also known as army crawling, right?
Elsa Chahin: The army crawling. But they do it at the floor level, right?
Janet Lansbury: Yes.
Elsa Chahin: Remember then we introduce little cushions and then maybe we introduce other little structures, as if they’re on a rising terrain. And then they learn to sit up by themselves. They kneel by themselves, and then also sometimes they kneel and then they are able to come back down on their own. And then they stand up by their own self and then they let themselves down. And then the child, the toddler, starts walking without clinging to objects. Because first our children cling to objects or to the wall, and then all of a sudden they walk well and walking becomes part of their locomotion. And this is published in data on gross motor development of the infant, 1972, by Emmi Pikler.
So now I’m going to the tummy time.
Janet Lansbury: But wait, before you do that, I just wanted to add that during all of these transitions, when a baby’s going from one thing to the next, we can observe all this incredible study that’s going on with them. I actually took a quote from the sensory awareness bulletin, which is Emmi Pikler, from her book Peaceful Babies, Contented Mothers. She said:
Only when not pushed to try a new movement, only then can you see the quietness, the attentive deep concentration, which notices nothing else. The joy and satisfaction which characterizes the learning process. The child who is developing in that way does not accept the offered hands, does not like to be offered help. She wants to learn independently, undisturbed, in her own way. The joy of learning, by the way, does not always depend on the result. Trying something out without arriving at a goal can be as joyful an experience as a “successful” experiment.
So this beautiful part that happens throughout these steps is what really is the essence, I believe, of this approach. And this is why I also think this is for parents as much as it’s for children, maybe even more so. Because guess what? As parents, we don’t have to worry and wonder, Am I supposed to be doing this? Somebody said my child could sit independently beginning around this time, so I need to make sure they’re in that position. I need to make sure they’re on their tummy, even though a lot of babies really are uncomfortable in that position and will express it. It’s all this pressure on us to try to guess what our child needs at a certain time, what we’re supposed to teach them, instead of letting go and trusting what’s inside them.
This is why, in the RIE classes, in the baby classes, we’re always pointing out what children are doing. Because it’s so hard for us as parents not to be worried about what they’re not doing yet. And imagine the message children get from that too. And Magda has a great quote around this, and I’m not thinking of it right now, but, What about me as I am, what I’m doing right now? Isn’t this interesting to you? Isn’t this wonderful? Isn’t this perfect for me right now? We put so much stress on ourselves as parents to try to teach children things that they learn much better through their own teaching, through what their insides are telling them to do.
Elsa Chahin: Absolutely. So while free motor development unfolds in a sequence that I mentioned, the age each child reaches each stage and the pace with which they continue to subsequent stages is individual. And we seem to be in a competition, what you said. Sometimes parents compare, Well, my baby can already do this and My baby can do that and Well, mine’s six months and can already crawl. There seems to be this pressure with the parents of, Oh my goodness, my baby’s not doing this yet. So Emmi Pikler talks about, what can your baby already do? Focus on what your baby can do and be mesmerized and amazed by that. There’s something so beautiful about their delicate movement. It doesn’t have to be an end result. They always say it’s not about the destination, it’s the journey. The journey of gross motor development, it’s so beautiful. And basically what we need is just the necessary conditions to invite them to do that.
I want to talk to you a little bit going back to the topic of the tummy time. Emmi Pikler was a researcher, as you know, tons of research. Over 3000 babies in her nursery, plus all the parents that were under her practice with their children. And in the sixties it became this new idea that we need to put babies on their tummy. Emmi Pikler was, as I said, a scientist. And as a scientist, you have to prove theories, right? So she had a control group, and I have this in a film, and it comes directly from her. She had a control group in the residential nursery, and she said, Okay, we’ve got to put these infants on their tummy for tummy time. And then the interviewer asked her, And what was the results? And she says, with a thick accent, They were all very angry! So then she stopped the study. They didn’t need it, they could come to the tummy when they were ready. But she did give it a try as a researcher.
And there’s a lot of pressure, and I respect pediatricians, and I’m not a doctor, so I cannot go against a pediatrician’s recommendations. All I’m saying is trust in your baby and your baby’s development.
We’re doing this documentary about Emmi Pikler, and in one of the films, Emmi Pikler, 1979 in Temple University in Philadelphia, she shows a video of a blind child. And she says we didn’t know she was blind because she arrived at the orphanage, the Pikler Institute, at birth. So they didn’t know she was blind. But can you believe, she developed exactly like the other children! Without watching them, without anyone teaching them. And at three years of age, she was climbing trees. So that tells you so much about human development.
You talked about the potential, the potential of a human being. And the one thing I wanted to add to what you were saying a little bit earlier is self-awareness. Babies, toddlers, they’re learning about their own self. How far can I go? How much can I reach to get a toy? What happens if I trip here? So they’re really learning about their own self-awareness. And nowadays, self-awareness is one of the foundations for emotional intelligence.
So can you imagine, when I asked you what you want for your children, you already gave it to them in infancy. Your children are going to know who to choose, what to choose. Why? Because they know themselves. This, I think, is the gift that we’re giving our children and what parents can give their children by just simply allowing them to be and trusting them. I think everything has to do with trust.
Janet Lansbury: Yes. And just in a practical sense, this idea of safety and risk-taking. Children who have that self-awareness and that sense of their own balance without leaning onto the adult to help them walk, they’re really in tune with where their body meets the world and what they can do. They are comfortable taking risks, but safer risks because they have a sense of their capabilities. They don’t tend to go too far out of their range of risk that they could handle. They’re that in tune and aware of themselves.
Of course, learning how to fall is as important, if not more important, than learning how to stand or walk, right? Learning how to fall safely. And we see children in our classes that are practicing natural motor development, we see how sometimes they were pulling up to stand and they get stuck. I have a video of a baby in my class, and she was stuck. She didn’t know how to get down without falling, and she was kind of yelling and her mom really wanted to pull her down. We just spotted and waited and acknowledged that she was having a hard time. And she would kind of plomp down onto her bottom, and then the mother would be so relieved. And I would be relieved in a way too, because no matter how many times I’ve seen this kind of thing, it’s always, I don’t know, I always feel responsible and I don’t want a child to be upset around me, ever. But she wasn’t really that upset. She immediately got up and tried it again, and she did it again and again.
But that learning how to fall, I mean, we see children going up on these platforms that we have in our classes and how they will fall off it sometimes, but it’s a measured kind of fall. They are always testing and checking out what they can do and what it’s like to do these things. And so that’s why we always say to spot them, but try not to move a child off of something, because they need a chance to figure out how to get down.
Elsa Chahin: Absolutely. And it reminds me of Magda Gerber and one of her quotes, A fall is nothing but a loss of balance. Children, if they’re going to fall, it’s just a fall. That’s why we have to create the right space where it’s safe. But this also builds the resilience. Resilience is an ability to recover from or adjust easily to change. And when we talk about risk-taking, this is probably the one thing I love the most, and why I really encourage everyone to invite children to develop at their natural pace in a safe space—is accidents.
We have a study with Dr. Pikler, when she was a pediatrician and then when she was the head of the institute. When she was a pediatrician, did you know that the parents that brought their children because they had an accident, a fracture, was the ones that had nannies? Because the nannies, of course, God bless them, I love nannies, and I had mine since I was born. She was my mom’s nanny, and I love nannies. But there’s a pressure that they have to be on top of the child, on top of the child, make sure nothing happens. But these children that didn’t have the possibility to move freely and that were always protected, protected, don’t bang your head here or let’s pad this or oh, don’t jump there. These children didn’t know their body, didn’t develop that self-awareness, and were the ones having accidents. And then what you noticed is the children from the farmers were climbing trees. And maybe, yeah, they would get bruised and fall off a tree, but not break anything, because they knew how to fall. So I think that’s something really important that has been measured.
And in the institute, when she had the residential nursery, 1946 to 2006, until it closed, there were very few fractures. And they were from children that had arrived not as infants or toddlers, but a little bit later, and they didn’t know about their body. So if you want to prevent falls, you want to prevent injuries, let your children learn to fall from the beginning, like you just mentioned.
Janet Lansbury: And they’ll show us their own timetable for that. We don’t even have to say, Oh gosh, they better learn how to fall. We never have to worry about any of that. They will naturally do it. And I mean, that’s the freeing part of it to me, again, is this idea that they have this part down.
But let’s talk a little about children that do have issues or disabilities that make it harder for them. What do we do then?
Elsa Chahin: So this is not my forte. You really, really, really have to learn from observing the child to know what does the child need? I’ll tell you this case, because I observed it back in 2003, I believe. There was an infant, I’m talking about a three-month infant, but already showing signs of some sort of disability. The baby was only looking to the right of the crib. So you know what they did? Instead of changing his head to the left, they turned the crib around.
Janet Lansbury: And then the child was able to turn their head?
Elsa Chahin: Uh-huh. So you really have to observe. You have to work with the team. You have to really observe. There was one child, our team is still in contact with him. He was trisomic and he was born without femurs, he just had feet basically next to his groin. And they saw very little chances for him, but they just let him develop. And he has his physical therapy and support, but they didn’t really rush the movement. They thought this little boy will never walk, will never stand up, will never be able to play with his peers. All of a sudden, he started pulling up on the crib, he started walking. This little boy was able to develop on his own, but his own pace with the support of the team, the pediatric team, just giving him exactly what he needed.
So this child, he was not able to be for adoption, and the team thought, we can’t send him to another residential nursery, even though the Pikler Institute typically only has children up to three. He was already five, six years old. So they had him go to kindergarten and they found that he was very good at mathematics and he liked clocks. That was his favorite thing, clocks. And then they introduced him to chess because they thought, well, if he’s good at numbers, he’s going to like chess. Well, he became a chess champion. He’s still in contact. He’s now an adolescent. He’s still in touch with the team.
And what I’m trying to get to is, when we see a disability, let’s see what can we offer this child to become competent and integrous and have a good sense of self? And not just based on the disability, but let’s find what is he good at? What does he like, and how can I prepare the environment better?
Janet Lansbury: Yes. It’s that idea, again, of appreciating where they are right now and what they have going for them. And so many times I see it, I feel it. I mean, my two daughters walked very, very late. And there’s children that are not on their knees crawling, they’re on their tummies doing that crawl, and they are one year old, sometimes. If you take a look at these children, if you watch them moving, and they were allowed to develop naturally in this way without a lot of intervention and restriction, you see they are so fast and they’re so nimble and they can get to everything they want. They don’t need to walk, in their view. I’m not ready to walk yet. I’m doing everything I want to do from this position. And I’ve gotten really, really good at it.
With this approach, we value trying to minimally intervene so that our child can stay in touch with that sense of their ability to do things and who they are and the way that they want to do that transitional position, the unique way that they have. It’s not like we’re not going to obviously give a child the therapies they need, but doing this in a way that still values and really prioritizes the child’s sense of autonomy in the situation. Doing the least thing so that our child can be the one to master the next move or whatever as best that they can. It’s finding that balance.
And I think we’re all doing that with our children, even as they grow up, trying to find that balance as parents between, Okay, where do they need my help and how can I give it in a minimal way so that they can be the most empowered and learn the most from this experience and own it?
Elsa Chahin: Yes, because they feel proud of themselves. They’ll look up to you with a smile like, I did that. But so many things exist that offer us false promises, that make us buy things that do not really support the autonomy of the young children. Walkers and the bouncy and the this. And you go to the baby registry, and there are all these things that I’m like, well, I don’t know if that’s really a good gift, right? Say, for example, the walker, these walkers don’t allow the baby or small child to move freely.
And going back to what you mentioned, I did a comparative chart. I had a friend graduating from, I think it was design school, and she needed to do this graph. She’s like, oh, I have to do this graph. I’m like, Hey, here’s a Pikler chart of gross motor development and here’s the CDC chart. Can you make a comparison and map it out by weeks, by different motor development stages? Let’s compare the CDC when they say, oh, the child at six months is already sitting up. Well, they can’t sit up unless you assist them because they put little pillows around them. But I said, okay, let’s compare them. You know, at around 2.83 years, they both reached the exact same milestones. I found that fascinating.
Janet Lansbury: That is fascinating.
Elsa Chahin: So what’s the rush? Why push them and why not just let them enjoy childhood? Magda Gerber in one of her videos says, Nowadays, our age is getting older. Do you remember that?
Janet Lansbury: Right. We’re living longer than ever before, and yet we’re rushing children to do everything early. What’s going on with that? I mean, that’s in kindergarten, that’s in preschools, everywhere.
Elsa Chahin: I think what you’re doing, and supporting these parents and your audience, I think it’s a beautiful start because it’s not just gross motor development. This is just a part of it. I talked about the Pikler triangle being care, freedom of movement, and self-initiated activity. If they’re growing up with all this love, with all this self-awareness, emotional intelligence, calculated risk-taking, can you imagine the confidence? These will be our world leaders. I like to believe that we can change our world in one generation.
Janet Lansbury: Well, that would be wonderful. I believe in that too.
And getting back to what you were saying about the rush, this is what Pikler said, that her approach to motor development is really focused on the first two years, when basic elements of movement are learned. And she said, “In this time, the helpless newborn who can’t do anything but wave her arms and legs around develops into a child who moves with intent, is able to grasp, stand, sit, and walk. How does this happen?” And what she offers—and what you offer and I try to offer and all of us doing this work are recommending—is that it happens from inside our child. And what an extraordinary thing. That not only do they do all these things, but they can do them in their own way, in time. They don’t need us to be part of that except, as you said, the relationship that we have with them. And this is one way that we can respect children as capable, separate beings.
It feels like we’re preaching to the choir, to each other here.
Elsa Chahin: I know, but you reminded me of something. San Francisco, 2015, Anna Tardos, Dr. Pikler’s daughter, who’s now 93, expert on Pikler. First Pikler baby, by the way. Someone asked her about teaching babies to walk. And she said, we have this urge to teach a child to walk because there’s some sort of subconscious fear that they will stay like an animal. I don’t know, that was a poor translation. But we’re afraid they’re just going to stay on all fours, so we want to help them become humans. So that’s part of our intrinsic subconscious as human beings, that we want to help. But at the same time, it’s trust the journey, let the babies develop. And they will. They will.
Janet Lansbury: Yes, they absolutely will.
Elsa Chahin: And I guess my conclusion to this beautiful conversation would be two things: What’s the hurry? And two, Trust your child.
Janet Lansbury: And do less, enjoy more, in terms of their development. Enjoy the unique positions they get in, all those transitional postures and really cool ways they have of learning. We can see it with our own eyes if we slow down a little, if we observe.
Elsa Chahin: I am very, very respectful of parents, of not telling them what to do. And this I learned from Anna. We share what we have. This has worked for us at the Pikler Institute and different places in the world with different parents. I have many parents that I shared this with, and it’s worked. So it’s just one way to the top of the mountain. And anyone can take it and see if it works. If it’s not, I still respect all parents in the world and their cultures. Because there are many parents that wear their babies, I know I did at one point in my life.
Janet Lansbury: Constantly, you mean?
Elsa Chahin: No. Some parents in Africa, for example, or South America, they have to wear their babies because they have to work the fields or they can’t lay them down because there are snakes or there are animals. So they have to wear their babies, and they still grow up fine. Anyway, after all this, what we’re saying is accept your baby, love them, and give them the opportunities that you can. And don’t feel guilty about anything. I don’t want ever to have parents feel guilty about anything.
Janet Lansbury: No, this is too hard a job. And there’s so many ways to be a great parent.
Elsa Chahin: I just want to take that burden off parents, that there’s some sort of, I don’t know, mindset of having to be this perfect parent. No, forget it. It doesn’t exist. Janet and I have been doing this for over 25, 27 years, and we still make mistakes.
Janet Lansbury: We do. And if you are doing something like sitting your baby up and you’re noticing, oh, they’re kind of frozen in this position and they can’t really move from there and they don’t know how to get down yet, then all you have to do is stop. And I know it’s not that easy because your baby will be used to what they’re used to, and they’re going to say, Wait, why am I not in this? But this is a wonderful time to, if you believe in this and want to even change it, to have a conversation with your baby about the truth. Which is, I know! You were always sitting up, you were seeing from that way. And now we’re trying this because we feel this might be better for you. And you can be mad and you can be upset about that. And if it’s too much, I’m going to pick you up and hold you, don’t worry. Really allowing that baby to have their feelings about any change that we make.
But most babies will adapt really quickly if we can allow them to have a little transition, some feelings around it, and we support that. And we’ll see then that they are freer. A lot of parents come to me because their baby can’t mobilize at all because they’ve been sitting a lot of the time. So you can undo anything. You can make changes at any time. There’s nothing to worry about here, it’s all good. And nothing to feel guilty about.
Elsa Chahin: What was the first word of our podcast today? It starts with an F.
Janet Lansbury: I have no idea.
Elsa Chahin: Sorry, that sounds like a bad word.
Janet Lansbury: I thought it was hello?
Elsa Chahin: Freedom. Freedom.
Janet Lansbury: Right, freedom. Freedom.
Elsa Chahin: So, freedom to the parents. Freedom to the children.
Janet Lansbury: That’s right.
Elsa Chahin: What a gift to be a parent, by the way.
Janet Lansbury: Yeah. It’s such a learning experience, isn’t it? I mean, I’ve never learned so much in my life as I have. I mean, forget about studying with Magda or anyone, just being a parent. You’re still learning. You’re learning about new generations as they get older. It’s so exciting.
Elsa Chahin: Yeah. That’s why your child is your expert. I don’t know if I told you, but Emmi Pikler in the 1930s, she worked with parents. It was a very different approach to working with a pediatrician. She would go with a family and say, Okay, you want me to be the pediatrician? We have to sign a contract. I will come here every week. Here’s a diary. I’m going to give you a question and you have to respond to the question, and I will come back next week. And what she was doing is teaching the parents to learn from their babies. Because she would say, The only expert is your child. It’s not me. Because back then pediatricians were only for exams or vaccines or accidents or things like that. She said, no, your child is your expert. So basically, to all the parents out there: learn to have your child as your expert and your child will guide you well. More than Janet and I.
Janet Lansbury: Oh, a hundred percent. 200%. Elsa, where do you recommend that we find out more about Pikler and this whole approach and your work that you’re doing? What do you recommend? What resources can parents use?
Elsa Chahin: I would recommend what I just said. Go to your baby, observe your baby.
Janet Lansbury: There you go.
Elsa Chahin: Forget about books. Forget about videos. I mean, I was a ballerina. I did go to college and I studied a lot of things, I have a lot of degrees. But I learned empirically, by dancing. So what I want you parents to take out of this, forget about reading a book, that’s somebody’s perspective. Go to your child and learn to observe your child. Be together.
There’s another quote that Magda has—I know her whole text by heart because I translated it to Spanish—she says, There are so many prophets now promising this and that and this and that. Forget about it. Learn from your baby. And that’s what I would say. Forget about a method. Forget about a pedagogy. Just be respectful. Be mindful. Be attentive. Allow proper space. That’s one thing that Emmi Pikler said, gate off this area. Can you believe she started with a Yes Space in the thirties? Gate off this area so the baby can play freely. When you’re with your child be fully present, talk to the child, talk to the infant. Let them play freely and then let the child develop. The children will grow up well. I think that’s all I could say.
Janet Lansbury: Well, thank you so much, Elsa. You are amazing. The work you do is just so inspiring.
Elsa Chahin: I feel the same about you. This is such an honor, I’m so grateful. And I hope this has been of service.
Janet Lansbury: Totally. Yes, it has. Your depth of experience with all of this and your wisdom is much, much appreciated. And even just that last part about learning from our children, I mean, that’s it right there in a nutshell, right? That’s all we have to say. Which means we have to trust our children to be able to learn from them, but also when we’re learning from them, as they’re showing us things, we will trust them more. So it works together.
Thank you so much.
Elsa Chahin: Thank you, Janet.
Janet Lansbury: Have a lovely rest of your day and we’ll talk again soon, I’m sure.
Elsa Chahin: I would love it. Thank you so much, and thank you to your audience. Bye.
Janet Lansbury: Bye.
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Learn more about Dr. Emmi Pikler’s groundbreaking work HERE at Pikler/Loczy USA.
